Carson vs Big Ben...

[DJSteel]

I heard this on the radio this morning...

Sean Salisbury said he'd take Carson when starting a new franchise.. which of the two would you take and why??

[Bobby Crougar]

Big Ben....He wins games. Point blank.

[DeaconBlade]

Palmer. i'm not too sure why. but i'd just take Palmer.

[Da Rafsta]

Deacon's on drugs. Big Ben all the way. I saw the kid shining with success in the NFL coming into the NFL. I remember calling that out right before that draft. We had that discussion back in the old skool xbox.como forums days.

[DeaconBlade]

i don't know. i like Big Ben man..i do. but if i'm drafting all over again, i still wouldn't take him tops. i dont' know why but i wouldn't lol

[DJSteel]

Palmer. i'm not too sure why. but i'd just take Palmer.


what's palmer's record as a starting QB???

[DeaconBlade]

not good. but i'd still take him over Big Ben if i'm stating a team.....weird but i would.

[Da Rafsta]

The reason probably would be that Carson Palmer is more like what you look for in a QB. He's got a fabulous arm, he's got very good mechanics, and has....from what I've seen nice pocket awareness. Perhaps he's thinking....put Palmer behind center with the Steelers, Palmer would be a better QB than what Big Ben is as one. :dunno:

Ben does make plays. It's what I think of him....a play-maker but if he gets to throwing too much...his numbers look below average. When that running game's working....Big Ben looks extremely nice. He's also kind of like Romo where he gets something out of nothing, getting positive yards on busted up plays....at times, huge gains. However...Palmer's that pocket QB who can make things happen and make it look pretty if his line is playing like it should and wideouts dont' drop the throws.

[Viper86]

I'd probably take Palmer. He has more passing TD's, more yards per game, and 40 less sacks in his career compared to Big Ben.

[DJSteel]

Carson's not a leader...
Carson has all the talent in the world and probably one of the best wr corps in the league...
He has not won a playoff game...
how can you pick Carson??

[AeroHudson]

Not this again...alright, I'll bite.

Palmer in an instant! The guy is an all around better QB than Ben by a long shot. You can't shoulder the losses of the Bengals all on Palmer. That's just not realistic.

Look at career stats and Palmer is better. You put Palmer on any other team, like the Steelers, Indy or another winning franchise and he would play that position the same if not better than their current starting QB's.

Just because Ben lucked his was into a Super Bowl win doesn't mean he is better than Palmer. The guy had the worst QB rating of any winning Super Bowl QB in that game.

Mark my words...Palmer will win a Superbowl one of these days. Maybe not for the Bengals but he will be a Superbowl champ. He's too good not to have that opportunity.

[DJSteel]

Not this again...alright, I'll bite.

Palmer in an instant! The guy is an all around better QB than Ben by a long shot. You can't shoulder the losses of the Bengals all on Palmer. That's just not realistic.

Look at career stats and Palmer is better. You put Palmer on any other team, like the Steelers, Indy or another winning franchise and he would play that position the same if not better than their current starting QB's.

Just because Ben lucked his was into a Super Bowl win doesn't mean he is better than Palmer. The guy had the worst QB rating of any winning Super Bowl QB in that game.

Mark my words...Palmer will win a Superbowl one of these days. Maybe not for the Bengals but he will be a Superbowl champ. He's too good not to have that opportunity.

lucked into a super bowl?? he single handily destroyed the Broncos in the AFC Championship game...

[AeroHudson]

lucked into a super bowl?? he single handily destroyed the Broncos in the AFC Championship game...

And then had the worst rated game of a winning QB in Super Bowl history against the Seahawks!

[DJSteel]

what does that mean.. everyone has a bad game.. he didn't lose the game for them.. plus what playoff experience does Carson Palmer have?? 20 seconds..

[AeroHudson]

what does that mean.. everyone has a bad game.. he didn't lose the game for them.. plus what playoff experience does Carson Palmer have?? 20 seconds..

...due to a Steeler taking out his knee.

Everyone has bad games and I am not saying that Ben is a bad QB. I am saying that most analysts I have heard comment on the subject have put Palmer as one of the top 3 QB's in the league behind Manning and Brady. You don't make it to the pro bowl for two years in a row and become the MVP of the pro bowl if you aren't a great player.

The losing Bengals have nothing to do with Palmer. He is not the problem and I think we all know that. Their Oline has been beat up dating to last year, they lost Perry in the backfield, their LB core is non existent and Chad has had a pretty off year. They also seem to be having challenges with a secondary even though there is a ton of talent back there. Not to mention there are some that question Lewis's ability to lead that team.

As I have stated before this does not reflect badly on Palmer on the quality of his play at all. He is an excellent QB and yes, I would take him over Ben any day of the week and twice on Sunday if I were starting an NFL franchise. I think we all know however, it takes more than a great QB to win football games.

[DJSteel]

...due to a Steeler taking out his knee.

Everyone has bad games and I am not saying that Ben is a bad QB. I am saying that most analysts I have heard comment on the subject have put Palmer as one of the top 3 QB's in the league behind Manning and Brady. You don't make it to the pro bowl for two years in a row and become the MVP of the pro bowl if you aren't a great player.

The losing Bengals have nothing to do with Palmer. He is not the problem and I think we all know that. Their Oline has been beat up dating to last year, they lost Perry in the backfield, their LB core is non existent and Chad has had a pretty off year. They also seem to be having challenges with a secondary even though there is a ton of talent back there. Not to mention there are some that question Lewis's ability to lead that team.

As I have stated before this does not reflect badly on Palmer on the quality of his play at all. He is an excellent QB and yes, I would take him over Ben any day of the week and twice on Sunday if I were starting an NFL franchise. I think we all know however, it takes more than a great QB to win football games.


would you agree his weapons are better than Ben's?

[AeroHudson]

would you agree his weapons are better than Ben's?

I would say the wide outs yes. Not the RB or the Oline which makes up the foundation of the offense. If that's not clicking well you can have all of the offense in the world and that won't matter.

[DJSteel]

I still think Big Bens intangibles are better and he has playoff experience...with less receiving weapons..

[IRISH]

Ben is a leader, Palmer is not...end of story....do you think anyone in the entire Steeler's orginazation would tolerate the shit the Bungles do on and off the field on a regular basis? ...I didnt think so...and this kind of leadership and class starts with a franchise QB controlling his team...(dont anyone bring up Anthony Smith...lol..)

:irish:

[AeroHudson]

Ben is a leader, Palmer is not...end of story....do you think anyone in the entire Steeler's orginazation would tolerate the shit the Bungles do on and off the field on a regular basis? ...I didnt think so...and this kind of leadership and class starts with a franchise QB controlling his team...(dont anyone bring up Anthony Smith...lol..)

:irish:

No offense but...give me a break. Carson Palmer did win a National Championship with USC and a Heisman Trophy. He is already in his 4th season a 2 time pro bowler and pro bowl MVP. He also "led" his team to an AFC North Division Championship. Would you say Ben wasn't a leader last year since the Steelers went 8 and 8? I didn't think so.

I don't think you can say he is not a leader. Debate all you want about which QB is better but to say he is not a leader is foolish and just downright wrong.

[IRISH]

I wont disagree with you on Carson's achievements while in college, but we are talking about the NFL here and the past is just that, the past...I'm sure alot of his misfortunes have to do with the team he plays for now, but winners overcome all of the crap that is thrown at them over the course of a season/career....

[AeroHudson]

I wont disagree with you on Carson's achievements while in college, but we are talking about the NFL here and the past is just that, the past...I'm sure alot of his misfortunes have to do with the team he plays for now, but winners overcome all of the crap that is thrown at them over the course of a season/career....

Considering this is his 4th season as a starter and he already has 2 pro bowls under his belt along with MVP honors from the last game coupled with stats that place him in the top 3 QB's during that stretch I think he is doing just fine. He's got his whole career ahead of him.

[DJSteel]

game MVPs?? are you kidding me???

Has he beaten the Pats or the Colts???

[AeroHudson]

game MVPs?? are you kidding me???

Has he beaten the Pats or the Colts???

Trying to define someone's career in 4 seasons is pretty ignorant don't you think? I merely point these things out because it is a great start to his career. Maybe not as good of a start as Ben and the Steelers but a good start nonetheless. Heck, it took John Elway until the end of his career to win a Superbowl. Jim Kelly never won one and Warren Moon never made it to the Superbowl not to mention Dan Marino. I would call these guys great QB's. I think Palmer has the potential to be mentioned with these guys when his career is all said and done.

Being part of a team that is having challenges doesn't mean the guy is a bad player or not a leader. It takes more than one man on a 50+ person squad to have success.

[DJSteel]

Cincinnati has been probably the biggest disappointment in the NFL the past two seasons.. Marvin Lewis better be thanking his lucky stars....

John Elway finally got a running back and they weren't so one dimensional after that..
Dan Marino never had a running back..

The Bills screwed themselves in the first SB, the other three they just faced a dynasty.. much like those great Dallas teams of the 70's

[AeroHudson]

Cincinnati has been probably the biggest disappointment in the NFL the past two seasons.. Marvin Lewis better be thanking his lucky stars....

John Elway finally got a running back and they weren't so one dimensional after that..
Dan Marino never had a running back..

The Bills screwed themselves in the first SB, the other three they just faced a dynasty.. much like those great Dallas teams of the 70's

You glazed over the core point here. You cannot define any player's career over 4 seasons. You also have to admit for the adversity that Palmer has faced in his brief career (i.e. blown out knee, character issues on his team, etc.) that he has done extremely well. Putting that into perspective, that is why a lot of folks, including me, expect great things from him in the future.

You help make my point with Marino and Elway...it takes more than one man. The last two years Cincinnati has had O line challenges and this year RB challenges not to mention the pitiful defense they have fielded. One man cannot overcome all of that all on his own.

You might want to throw the Steelers in there as one of the biggest dissappointments of last year. Superbowl champs go 8 and 8 and don't make the playoffs. I would call that dissappointing as well. And don't get too excited about this season just yet. With losses to the Jets, Broncos and Cards and not winning a big game against a triple A team I think the verdict is still out on them. We'll see just how good of a "leader" Big Ben is.

If they don't go to the SB this year and lose in the first round of the playoffs can we blame Big Ben for that and start talking about he is not a leader and not a good QB? I didn't think so.

[DJSteel]

You glazed over the core point here. You cannot define any player's career over 4 seasons. You also have to admit for the adversity that Palmer has faced in his brief career (i.e. blown out knee, character issues on his team, etc.) that he has done extremely well. Putting that into perspective, that is why a lot of folks, including me, expect great things from him in the future.

You help make my point with Marino and Elway...it takes more than one man. The last two years Cincinnati has had O line challenges and this year RB challenges not to mention the pitiful defense they have fielded. One man cannot overcome all of that all on his own.

You might want to throw the Steelers in there as one of the biggest dissappointments of last year. Superbowl champs go 8 and 8 and don't make the playoffs. I would call that dissappointing as well. And don't get too excited about this season just yet. With losses to the Jets, Broncos and Cards and not winning a big game against a triple A team I think the verdict is still out on them. We'll see just how good of a "leader" Big Ben is.

If they don't go to the SB this year and lose in the first round of the playoffs can we blame Big Ben for that and start talking about he is not a leader and not a good QB? I didn't think so.


Yeah well 8-8 is a pretty decent season when your head coach call it in and your QB almost dies before the season starts...plus it's just a dip in in the road while your boys 11-5 season is looking like more of an apparition than not...and yes the 4 losses are bad... not as bad as your 8 losses...

[Da Rafsta]

http://www.encircling.us/forums/images/smilies/gayfight.gif

[AeroHudson]

Yeah well 8-8 is a pretty decent season when your head coach call it in and your QB almost dies before the season starts...plus it's just a dip in in the road while your boys 11-5 season is looking like more of an apparition than not...and yes the 4 losses are bad... not as bad as your 8 losses...

With that reasoning, and I am not disagreeing, 8-8 for the Bengals was "pretty decent" considering your QB just game back from what could have been a career ending knee injury, your team had character issues and distractions out the wazoo, you lost 2 of your starting LB's due to injury or suspension, and a host of other issues.

You come talk to me when your Steelers are outed in the first round of the playoffs. Go ahead and brag about how great Ben and crew are then. You seem to be the only NFL fan around here with something to prove considering you are the OP on this very stale and repetitive topic. Live with the fact that a lot of NFL peeps out there would take Palmer over Ben if starting a team.

[DJSteel]

With that reasoning, and I am not disagreeing, 8-8 for the Bengals was "pretty decent" considering your QB just game back from what could have been a career ending knee injury, your team had character issues and distractions out the wazoo, you lost 2 of your starting LB's due to injury or suspension, and a host of other issues.

You come talk to me when your Steelers are outed in the first round of the playoffs. Go ahead and brag about how great Ben and crew are then. You seem to be the only NFL fan around here with something to prove considering you are the OP on this very stale and repetitive topic. Live with the fact that a lot of NFL peeps out there would take Palmer over Ben if starting a team.

lmfao.. the knee injury was in 2005.. almost two seasons ago... give me a break with that..:lol2:

[AeroHudson]

lmfao.. the knee injury was in 2005.. almost two seasons ago... give me a break with that..:lol2:

You need to read what I typed. The knee injury impacted their 8-8 season which happened in 2006. The knee injury by the way happened in 2006 very similar to Ben's noggin getting busted. If you are arguing that they had a decent season considering his head injury on 2006 than I'm thinking the same logic could be used for Palmer's knee injury in 2006.

Maybe it's just me but that seems to make sense. :blink:

[DJSteel]

how does a knee injury = appendectomy and a near death car accident?

man it must be a weird world in Aero's head..

[AeroHudson]

how does a knee injury = appendectomy and a near death car accident?

man it must be a weird world in Aero's head..

I'm not minimizing Ben's situation, although you seem to be minimizing what happened to Palmer.

Palmer had his knee blown out and in less than 7 months was back on the field playing at a high level. If you read interviews with football players that have experienced these kind of issues they are just as much psychological as they physical. It takes quite awhile to get back after something like that. Palmer just happened to do so and make the pro Bowl for his performance and get the MVP for that game.

What Palmer accomplished is nothing short of astounding. Look at Culpepper and the fact that it took him more than a year with even more bumps in the road before he finally put in some good games for the Raiders. Look at how long it took Mcnabb to get back in the swing.

A knee injury is not some minor cut or bruise as you would like to make people think. BTW, I've had my appendix taken out and after 10 days I felt great. If that kind of procedure threw off Ben's entire year he's more of a wimp than I though. ;)

[DJSteel]

yep.. Aeroland... between Cleveland and Kentucky..

[AeroHudson]

yep.. Aeroland... between Cleveland and Kentucky..

Whatever DJ...you will only be happy if every one bows down and worships Ben and the Steelers. :rolleyes:

[DJSteel]

nope.. just when you bengal fans realize Carson Palmer isn't all world....yet..

[AeroHudson]

nope.. just when you bengal fans realize Carson Palmer isn't all world....yet..

Never said he was. I do think he is a great QB and...wait for it...better than Ben. ;)

[DJSteel]

you are wrong sir..

[paniro777]

hey come on you guys, i really don't think there is a right or wrong answer here. IMO, most people will say palmer over ben because he seems to be a more protypical QB. That can be argued, but many thing that way, right or wrong. The arguement can be made for both.

And I remember that discussion on mike and mike, and it began with Big Ben, Romo, and Palmer, and both guys on the show took Palmer first, then Romo, then Big ben, in that order.

[blazsox]

Personally, I am a Ryan Leaf guy.

[AeroHudson]

Personally, I am a Ryan Leaf guy.

LMAO! That's good stuff right there!

[xStArDoMx]

I'll have to go with Palmer. I mean look at him. What a weapon. Great arm, great awareness, decent mobility. I just don't see Roethlisberger as much of a threat as Palmer. I mean you take Palmer out of his horrible O-Line environment and place the Patriot's or Colt's line in front of him and he will excel like any other QB with a great line would. Don't get me wrong, Roethlisberger is a great QB. I just don't see him as being able to start a franchise for any team. He isn't that type of player.

Sure Palmer has more weapons. He has Johnson and Housemandzada. Ben has a line. Even it out.

[IRISH]

Ben has a line. Even it out.
have you been watching the Steelers this year at all? ....our O-line sucks balls...it's pretty much in need of a complete over-haul...

Marvel Smith and a few others were just going through the motions yesterday especially...Ben was the only guy to even show up on both sides of the ball against Jacksonville (and he was playing hurt)

[AeroHudson]

have you been watching the Steelers this year at all? ....our O-line sucks balls...it's pretty much in need of a complete over-haul...

Marvel Smith and a few others were just going through the motions yesterday especially...Ben was the only guy to even show up on both sides of the ball against Jacksonville (and he was playing hurt)

According to DJ the wins and losses and overall success of a football team can be placed on one man's shoulders. If the Steelers end up losing the division to the Browns and/or lose in the first round of the playoffs does that mean it is all Ben and now he isn't a good leader?

Something to think about as we discuss the impact only one player can have on a football team.

[DJSteel]

Palmer is NOT mobile at all.. and Aero.. I said it the wins, losses, and leadership(which I have yet to see Palmer show) count for something..

[AeroHudson]

Palmer is NOT mobile at all.. and Aero.. I said it the wins, losses, and leadership(which I have yet to see Palmer show) count for something..

Like I said above...if that scenario unfolds, which it very well could, does that mean the Steelers have leadership issues? Does that mean Ben doesn't have what it takes to lead this team?

BTW, if you don't think taking a losing franchise in your second year as a starter to the champs of your division isn't leadership I'm not sure what is.

[Da Rafsta]

Ehhh....Big Ben improvises....Palmer doesn't. I've never seen Palmer make spectacular plays that make you say wow. Big Ben in his short history in the NFL has made some marvelous plays when the opposing defense busted the timing of the Steelers' offensive play. Somehow, Ben gets out of the pocket, hobbles on one leg to stay on balance, look down the field and makes a wonderful throw. He did this his rookie year against the Cowboys, he did it against the Broncos in the AFC Championship, lobbing it into coverage and the TD was still made, he's done it a couple of times this year as well.

Hell...I'd take Drew Brees over Palmer. Call me crazy but I would.

[AeroHudson]

Ehhh....Big Ben improvises....Palmer doesn't. I've never seen Palmer make spectacular plays that make you say wow. Big Ben in his short history in the NFL has made some marvelous plays when the opposing defense busted the timing of the Steelers' offensive play. Somehow, Ben gets out of the pocket, hobbles on one leg to stay on balance, look down the field and makes a wonderful throw. He did this his rookie year against the Cowboys, he did it against the Broncos in the AFC Championship, lobbing it into coverage and the TD was still made, he's done it a couple of times this year as well.

Hell...I'd take Drew Brees over Palmer. Call me crazy but I would.

You're crazy!! ;)

[DJSteel]

Like I said above...if that scenario unfolds, which it very well could, does that mean the Steelers have leadership issues? Does that mean Ben doesn't have what it takes to lead this team?

BTW, if you don't think taking a losing franchise in your second year as a starter to the champs of your division isn't leadership I'm not sure what is.


Steelers don't have leadership issues.. Steelers have performance issues with their OL...Ben is a leader.. he comes out, is vocal to his teammates, etc..

meanwhile the Bungles clearly won the division (btw which was winning 3 more games than they did the year before).. was because they had a sick turnover +/- that they can't duplicate.. Same thing happened to the Bears this year...they aren't nearly getting the turnovers they did last year...

[xStArDoMx]

I never liked the Bears. I like Devin Hester though. He's a beast. Man...

[AeroHudson]

meanwhile the Bungles clearly won the division (btw which was winning 3 more games than they did the year before).. was because they had a sick turnover +/- that they can't duplicate.. Same thing happened to the Bears this year...they aren't nearly getting the turnovers they did last year...

That still doesn't take anything away from the accomplishment...:dunno:

[Scarecrow]

http://www.encircling.us/forums/images/smilies/gayfight.gif

LMAO....................

I love how the blown out knee is still blamed on Kimo when even Palmer has said that it was not Kimo's fault:curse:

I would take Ben and here is why:

He is a Leader and was taught how to lead from one of the BEST (Bettis).
He gets away most of the time and makes plays when he has to.
He has a good arm and can quickly get his team back to where they need to close the scoreing gap (2 touchdowns in 7 1/2 minutes)
he is bing and tough to take down and he is fast.
He has Hines Ward. enough said.

I have missed these cat fights:afro:

[Da Rafsta]

Funny how Big Ben is rooting Palmer on to beat the Browns...LOL

[AeroHudson]

Funny how Big Ben is rooting Palmer on to beat the Browns...LOL

I'm actually rooting for the Browns...tells you how much I hate the Steelers! :d

[DJSteel]

I'm actually rooting for the Browns...tells you how much I hate the Steelers! :d



lmao.. leave it to a Bungle fan to root against the Bungles...

[Da Rafsta]

I'm actually rooting for the Browns...tells you how much I hate the Steelers! :d

I hate the Steelers too but I'm indifferent in this case. I don't care one bit who wins that division. They're both making it to the playoffs.

[Da Rafsta]

lmao.. leave it to a Bungle fan to root against the Bungles...
:blink: ....uhhh....what?

[DJSteel]

Aero is a Bengals fan... Browns play the Bengals this week.. he is rootin for the Browns..

[Da Rafsta]

Yeah...I figured you meant that but you wrote, "leave it to a Bungle fan to root for the Bungles" when you meant to say a Bungle fan rooting for the Dookie Browns.

Crazy how he is rooting against his team. It's an exception....I know, but it's still understandable. LOL. Still crazy though! http://www.encircling.us/forums/images/smilies/lol.gif Damn Aero. You might be giving me some competition there...

[AeroHudson]

I figure that Cincinnati's season is over. It helps them more to lose some games and get a better first round draft pick. On top of that, if the Browns win they are tied for the division lead. I want the Steelers to lose the division.

Makes sense to me.

[Da Rafsta]

yeah, me too.

[DJSteel]

screw you haters...

[Da Rafsta]

screw you haters...

http://www.encircling.us/forums/images/smilies/phi.gif

[AeroHudson]

Hugs and kisses DJ...hugs and kisses! ;)

[Viper86]

Go Browns!

[Scarecrow]

Aero, I feel your pain and I LOVE all the Steelers haters, especially 2 years ago when they made NFL history.............LMAO.

GO Bengals ;) The Steelers will take care of the browns in the Playoffs (I hope)

The Browns do deserve it though IMO.

[IRISH]

Let's go Bungles....lol...

:beer2: :irish:

[Scarecrow]

I too am rooting for the Bungles..............

[IRISH]

I too am rooting for the Bungles..............

Anderson looks like poop right now....two picks that lead to touchdowns with less than 3 minutes left in the half? .... LMFAO...

[DJSteel]

pssst... Derek Andersen isn't that good...

[Scarecrow]

I think Andersen did a good job for the Browns this year, better than they have been doing in the last 20 years or more...................lmao

[Da Rafsta]

Anderson's had a great season. Time to see if he's not another Mark Rippen. (sp?)